w1770w

Sleep is for the Week

Name's Willow or Will, 25+ y.o.

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Any NSFW chosts will be tagged appropriately.


natatorialremnants
@natatorialremnants
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cathoderaydude
@cathoderaydude

idk if it's exactly the same thing, but the problem I've experienced - and I don't really know how to put this in a way that doesn't sound demeaning, but trust that I am literally describing how my brain seems to work, based on the only evidence i have - is that I do not have the ability to "fool myself." i am, to put it plainly, too smart for my own good.

you know when you shake a feather behind a box, and the cat jumps through the box instead of just, going around to grab the feather? but then some cats understand that the feather is actually outside the box and they don't need to stuff their big soft face through a hole and look like a disgusting gremlin in their attempts to reach it? i feel like cat #2

i must point out that cat #2 does not have any fun, in this scenario. instead of wildly pawing at a thing they can't reach and having a grand old time playing, they just walk around the box and go "uh, it's right there" and lay down like a stuck up little asshole who's too good for your generous attempt to entertain them.

I feel like people who can develop good habits have brains that just accept what they're told. Like, not in a "you're gullible" sense, but in a "your godforsaken meat computer respects the instructions you give it, instead of acting like a petulant know-it-all kid who knows they're ahead of their class and thinks it means they get to skip straight from childhood to adulthood without any of the scut work in between."

I wish something like "set your clock 10 minutes late so you'll always be early to things" would work for me. It does not; the exact millisecond that I institute that policy, my brain turns to me and goes "I just started subtracting ten minutes from everything. Can we not... you know, do this?" It's response to every single thing I try is "do you think I'm stupid over here? I can see that the feather is attached to the string. I can see your hand moving it."

When you form "good habits," and when you try to create "systems," you're creating an outside authority, something bigger than your id. You tell yourself, "let's make a system where I write down everything I need to do on a post-it, and then I update the post-its, and then I can just look at them to see what needs doing."

This works for a couple days. In that time, you are letting the post-its police your behavior. They are in charge - you believe, for that period, that if it isn't on a post-it, I can't do it.

This works until you need to make an exception. You need to do something that's not on a post-it, something emergent, or a little convenience item that isn't worth walking over to wherever the post-its are, filling one out, going and doing the thing, and coming back two minutes later and crossing it off.

Whoops!

The system is now powerless. You have stripped it bare, you can see how naked it is, you can see that it never had any power at all, and you will never fucking respect it again. Your brain goes "post-it? what, you're still doing that? do you still believe in santa claus too?"

Is it ADHD? Is it something comorbid? Do I just have oppositional defiant disorder towards everything including myself? I don't know and it wouldn't matter if I did; the effect is that there is a voice in my head mocking every solution I try to create, as soon as it's revealed to be voluntary. Fuck that, it says; I know more than a pile of post-its or a kanban or a set of personal guidelines you created for me to follow. I'm smart, says the id, and I don't need any of that bullshit.

It's Scorched Earth Syndrome because you leave a trail of these broken, incinerated systems behind you, failed plan after failed plan. And every time you feel worse about it, because you remember how nice things were the last time, when the system was working. The post-its were wonderful! They fixed so many problems! You had a couple of the lowest-stress days of your life with them, until the moment they began feeling like preschool baby blocks that were being imposed on you by some demeaning third party.

As I wrote in my article six or seven years ago, I say again now: I have no advice. Knowing what the problem is didn't help me solve it and I still haven't figured anything out.


JillKatze
@JillKatze

whatever gravis’s brain disease is, i have it. i’ve given up on trying to create systems for myself because i know from the start they’re fake and can’t be made to respect them. the best i can do is get momentum by causing some external force (like, another person) to make me stick to a schedule but the first time that schedule needs an exception it all goes off the rails. i streamed almost every friday in 2020 and then circumstances resulted in needing to cancel two weeks in a row and the spell was broken and i haven’t been able to get the mental momentum to get back on the horse ever since, even if the desire sometimes briefly returns to me. it flickers out or is just outright forgotten entirely before i act on it. love to have my cool brain


Remetheus
@Remetheus

coming back to this because i realized sharing the information might be helpful for some, not particularly the people i'm replying to but for anyone reading this.

something that's often comorbid with (or occurs without but looks a lot like) ADHD is Cognitive Disengagement Syndrome (CDS) (also known as Concentration Deficit Disorder or Sluggish Cognitive Tempo but i don't like that term and it's about as accurate as ADHD being only a deficit of attention is)


where (in simplistic but good enough terms) ADHD can be understood as primarily a dysfunction in executive functions, CDS is currently understood as a dysfunction in the orienting network or the engagement/disengagement/shift of attention. where attention is concerned, ADHD fails to sustain attention, CDS fails to engage attention.

an important part for both is the concept of inhibition which is when your brain says no, usually filtering out anything irrelevant or a waste of resources. in ADHD, it can be too slow or very bad at filtering irrelevance. you keep doing things before you properly think about doing them i.e. impulsive. in CDS, it's your working memory system which can be too slow where your inhibition is normal or overactive so inhibition is too good and filters out even the relevant before you can organize your thoughts. you keep not doing things because you're working against your brain telling you no i.e. inhibited.

if you have both, it is basically a horseshoe and have fun doubting if you actually have adhd or not. you may also only have one and you or your brain probably picked up compensatory/coping mechanisms that can overcorrect so you're consciously self-inhibiting yourself to deal with impulsivity, or trying to be more creative or active somehow with inhibition, and that's even more confusion.

so you have a nice little system and maybe after a while the novelty/interest/challenge/urgency or momentum of it has worn off or was interrupted. the next time you try to engage with the system the brain might just immediately say no first and before you can consciously recognize the thought, all resources are already terminated so you can't complete much less start the behavior. nothing about it works for you anymore because no, do not engage. if you've ever been burnt out, it can feel kind of like that.

if you're finding all the adhd tips and tricks aren't working out the best, it might be worth a look if this can help explain especially if your ADHD presentation is inattentive and you're often lethargic. it won't directly help, but it'll help cut down on things that probably won't work with you and what particular things to expect, like which adhd medication being less likely to help with these symptoms (most of them) and what parts of the systems recommended to you would more visibly give you friction (if you only have CDS your executive function might be fine so you'd find tips to sustain attention baffling).

the internal/external divide of motivation is another thing where people with ADHD just aren't really internally motivated but can be externally so and trying to understand what that means exactly is just juggling self-justifications of imposing systems on yourself but they don't really feel external unless you're clever with stimulus, framing things, and self-regulation which is the problem in the first place. the concept of psychological reactance may be helpful for anyone trying to get their brains to accept things because it doesn't like being limited, not even by itself, which emotional dysregulation then exacerbates.

barkley's 2018 lecture was my first good understanding of CDS and it's probably still a great place to start

disclaimer: some of the explanations are way too simplified or generalized and the majority is me talking from what i remember and experience. i'm also not a psychologist or someone who studied medicine, just someone trying to be well-informed on their own personal condition so ymmv. i'm confident enough in the general body of research and evidence but many do disagree, and CDS is not an official or well-known diagnosis (that may hopefully be changing, i'm not caught up on recent literature).


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in reply to @natatorialremnants's post:

This is a very exact description of the problem I have too, sans the specific scenarios of course. I've gone through life with other people telling me I'm just lazy or maybe I don't actually care about the things I keep procrastinating, but the problem is it's EVERYTHING. I don't attempt to start projects anymore if it's not something I can finish in one or two sittings because I WILL barely start some notes and then oops it's no longer consuming space inside my head anymore so I've entirely forgotten about it.

I'm guilty of the 'not being able to brush every day' too 😅When I was in school, I just completely stopped taking care of myself because of depression, and now that I realize how completely screwed up that was, and am trying to reverse it, it's like I can't stay on the habit for long. It becomes mentally painful to continue.

I've watched an ADHD video that described motivation as like a full bridge at first, but over time as you continue with the thing you lose more and more planks. Until eventually, you're stuck in the middle of the bridge. That definitely applies to me where motivation's concerned.

I have this trouble as well.

A few things that have helped me, and I hope helps others:

-External Cooperation: If available, getting someone to do or structure systems with you can be a life saver. A gym partner, someone to brush your teeth directly after every morning, someone to send mirror selfies to to prove you brushed your hair, whatever.

-Internal cooperation: More of a mindset. A lot of times I find myself struggling with the above issues of respect for a system/seeing the system as authoritative. It's become a lot easier when I treat systems primarily as things to iterate on, like tools I'm crafting. If I'm making an oath to myself (do things off the postits), I need to find the places in which there are reasonable exceptions and allow for them in the text; no text contract is going to be perfect. "I'll do things off the post-its except for in dire or emergent need, and I'll record on the post-its my justification and review it." Is one such iteration. The text will be longer but its not like anyone but you needs to read it. "For two weeks, after which I'll stop for three days and review." is another such iteration! etc. When systems fail (and they do!) I normally get relatively caught up and excited on what I could have done better and what I can do next time.

-Contract Knowledge: Touched on above, but my goal when making an oath to myself is that the oath should be Achievable, Binding, and Changeable. Achievable means they should be able to be completed and then you win. You get a reward maybe, but it ends regardless. You want this to happen. Binding means that, once you're in it, you ONLY get the exceptions to it you set up originally (except three days this month of my choosing, not when sick, not when guests are over, etc~) and if you mess that up you've LOST. You gotta record how you lost and then suffer it out and move to iteration phase, or scuttle and iterate immediately. Changeable means that the entire thing should be modular. You want bits and pieces you can move around and alter, levers that you can easily change. I find:
"I'll (do action) for (x time limit) every (triggering event) so long as (contextualizing information), unless (escape clause one). Additionally (overarching escape clause, exclusion days, what-to-do-if-you-fail)." makes a really good starting contract to work with. Just fill it in however.

Hope that helps someone :3

in reply to @cathoderaydude's post:

the world is already a system, of which I am a subset, undifferentiated except by ego. anything I build around me is more of the system that is "me" than there was before

I am unsure if you would like advice, but if so here is a gist of what I did for this

basically the name of the game is to work with the flow and opposition instead of trying to "tackle" or "cure" or "fight" the gremlin brain. our brains fundamentally do not work like most, so the advice for them just will not work, willpower will not work.

an off the cuff example was I was having difficulty waking up on time, so I started placing my headphones / laptop near my bed, so now it isn't "I have to drag myself out of bed to go to work in two hours" it's "if I wake up I can, right now, put on a youtube series I like". our brains hunt for novelty and struggle to conceptualize time, so "we have to leave in a few hours" is nothing, there's no dopamine there, ya know? instead I found a reason to leave bed on time that has novelty and immediacy as the reward. it's a million tiny changes like that.

I remember that thread fondly, because it was the most visceral depiction of an unidentified struggle I've had my whole life. The last piece in the puzzle that upon completion, read: "Oh Fuck, I Have Undiagnosed ADHD." Or, as you've said here, it could be a comorbidity or whatever. I also heavily suspect I've got a Pathological Demand Avoidance profile of autism, so who knows where it ties in. Doesn't really matter, I get it.

Like yourself, I've not found a useful solution but can't say I've been looking for one either. Got myself an actual ADHD diagnosis and stimulant treatment a couple of years ago, and while that doesn't help me with long-term structure it's definitely been a lifechanger for my day-to-day functionality. So uh, thanks for raising that flag that clicked everything into place. You're still killing it 👍

I'm sort of despondent that the best advice I can give (in general, not this case) is with every planning system, my big weakness is it's too much because I Need To Be Doing The System Or It Wont Work (but it still will) -- smaller changes that are easier to adopt make them stick more for me, and then I can build off from there. But trying to adopt something whole cloth makes it rly hard. But that's not new advice, that's the same advice everyone gives for ADHD. There's literally no good solution and it's so frustrating, because the researchers are about three decades ahead of the psychiatrists.

It sucks and i wish I had better to give people outside of "read these two books, they might help, they helped me but not enough"

I've found checklists do help, but that's because of my bad memory

but i also just scorched earth early. Learn the lessons I can from a failing system and then move to another. Really doesn't help the wallet, but.

for ADHD (all of these are on Audible):

  • Laziness Does not Exist (from the author of Unmasking Autism, mostly pointing things out and saying 'this is you it's not a thing to fight or a failing' and then going into the research. Written by someone in the community, but who also has a PhD. Bridges a good gap between research and community Veers into a screed against capitalism, which is cool but I wish it wasn't padding the book. Some pretty good strategies to redirect things instead of fighting them. Def gave me a better outlook on some of my things, even though I'd been actively working on my ADHD for decades before reading it.
  • You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid, or Crazy? written by authors from the community, and not researchers. It's all over the place and perhaps needs a stronger editor, and suffers from being rewritten in 2006 instead of more recently, but it's still worthwhile imo. Also one of the few places I've heard anyone outside of psychiatric research discuss the thing where many ADHD people are desensitized to specifically oral sex for some reason.
  • honorable mention to Organizing Solutions for People with ADHD, it wasn't helpful to me but it did give me a good breadth of systems to try and fail at, which gave me a great idea of what did and didn't work

for Autism:

  • Unmasking Autism, one of the best books for "look, here are all the different ways your brain works, here's how to help some of them, and here's how to understand it better". As someone who's been in online autistic and autistic-led-research spaces for years, it had new things even for me. Highly, highly recommended read

Thanks for this! I already have Laziness Does not Exist, and I've heard about Unmasking Autism, but I've never heard about the rest.

many ADHD people are desensitized to [...] oral sex for some reason

what

Hmm. yeah. yeah this. my brain usually just understands that a lot of what i try to set a goal and accomplish doesn’t actually need to be accomplished by a date or anything and there’s so much leeway that any deadline or habit I try to set is about as solid and meaningful as a roll of toilet paper in the ocean. Especially intermediate chunking deadlines in the face of a bigger one, so I get big anxiety about the bigger one while failing the mid ones. Only thing that has been effective is being decisive about “when i feel like doing some of this naturally, i Need to”. It really doesn’t help that when i get into a minor groove of, say, getting out of bed earlier, i lapse sooner than later and find that it really didn’t improve my wellbeing very much. But ‘growth is a spiral, not a circle, and even though I return to the same patterns, I will eventually break free.’

I mean, i want to believe that last quote to be an inevitable truth of some kind, but at this point having lived with 28 years of ADHD and autism i'm really not sure breaking free is ever truly achievable. maybe it is and i'm just being pessimistic, but i havent seen anything to prove the contrary

your godforsaken meat computer respects the instructions you give it, instead of acting like a petulant know-it-all kid who knows they're ahead of their class and thinks it means they get to skip straight from childhood to adulthood without any of the scut work in between.

oof ow owie

Yeah that's. That's it, huh.

I can't remember to take my meds. Alarms don't work, putting it in an obvious place doesn't work, having snacks to eat with them doesn't work, Habitica (therapist's suggestion) felt almost insulting. Then the doctor asks why I'm not taking them, I say for the millionth time that my memory sucks and all the reasons why previous things failed after a week, and get told to try harder.

Maybe if my goddamn brain could do its basic functions I wouldn't need to try tricking it, did it ever think of THAT

in reply to @Remetheus's post:

hah yeah, it can feel hopeless. not to say i write this to be resigned to the world as is. it can get worse, maybe it can get better. some people respond well, others don't, it could be a different thing, etc. i'm glad there's research to be done, people working on to find something that would work. medical, mental, and chronic issues are a struggle, and in the meantime there's the work of having to figure things out for ourselves and gaining some understanding

one of my favorite bits i've learned is that sleep deprivation can be a short-term coping mechanism because it does lower inhibitions to do things and lessens depression even if you're not functioning perfectly, but not having enough sleep is really terrible in the long term.